saltillo question for second story wood floor [Archive] - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums (2024)

hamlet_jones

07-01-2005, 08:12 PM

I want to put saltillo on my second story. The floor is constructed of 2x6 doug fir (#1 or better), 16" o.c., with a joist span of 8'-11" thru-out. The joists are over girders that are kinda funky, 8"x8" with 2x12 on each side, supported every 10 feet o.c.

Looking from above:

======|X|================|X|=====
======|+|================|+|====
======|+|================|+|====
======|+|================|+|=====
======|+|================|+|===
======|+|================|+|====
======|+|================|+|=====
======|+|================|+|==
======|+|================|+|====
======|X|================|X|===
======|+|================|+|====

1) the { ====== } is the 2x6 joist, 16" o.c.
2) the { |+| } is the girder, where the { | } are the 2"x12";
and the {+} is the 8"x8"
3) the { X } is the post

My floor is approx. 20x40 feet, broken up with closets and rooms, etc.

I plan on using 1/2" Hardibacker laid over the existing 3/4 t&g plywood, which itself is on top of a 1/2 exterior ply.

Overall, the floor seems pretty solid, and when I jump (all 220#s of me), I don't seem to get too much bounce or jounce, with a pine worktable nearbye jumping just a bit.

Any ideas?

-Hamlet

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hamlet_jones

07-02-2005, 01:36 AM

Oh, no, I'm answering my own thread...

I go here, and find that I meet the L/360 rule for doug-fir,

http://www.boonecountylumber.com/resources.asp?SpanSheet

however, the John Bridge calculator says "no":

http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/deflecto.pl

What gives?

-Hamlet

John Bridge

07-02-2005, 12:39 PM

Hi Hamlet, Welcome. :)

Our deflectolator was designed by our engineers to be on the conservative side, given the fact that we are never on the scene. That could explain the difference.

Still, though, Saltillo tiles are extremely soft, and in my estimation they should be treated like stone tiles which require twice the stiffness of floor that ceramic tiles require. I wouldn't install Saltillo tiles over a 2X6 framed floor.

I suggest you look for a ceramic tile that gives you something of the rustic look. There aren't any good looking Saltillo lookalikes, unfortunatley.

hamlet_jones

07-02-2005, 01:17 PM

Thanks John, I didn't realize that saltillo was equivalent to the requirements for stone. My second story space is over a workshop space, with exposed joists. There are few wires, and no plumbing, and everything is very regular. I was thinking of slapping plywood up with some glue and screws, but that won't get me far enough, I see that now. I think I'll get out my nailer and glue and siamese in 2x6's half-way up the existing units. (There are 2x4's on edge up under there, used as blocking for the plywood ends, so I can't get my new 2x6's fully up and engaged with the underside of the flooring/plywood.) The end result should be a funky looking 2x9 (1.5"x9.00", or if you can picture two 2x6's overlapped by 2 inches, if you follow me. This translates to a deflection of L / 1020, which should be actually a little more, because of the overlap.

Wadda-ya tink?

-Hamlet

Oh, what kind of glue is recomended for a siamese project, liquid nails?

jadnashua

07-02-2005, 06:01 PM

hamlet_jones

07-02-2005, 08:18 PM

Well... I could rip a 2x6 in half lengthwise, then glue and screw them to the bottom of what I have... Or, I could just use 2x4's, but then I'd have to find really long screws, at least a 6" screw, and wouldn't that be a bugger to drive home :crazy: , Unless, i just put them on the flats, and was happy with gaining and extra 1.5" to the bottom....

-Hamlet

John Bridge

07-04-2005, 07:23 AM

jadnashua

07-04-2005, 11:47 AM

hamlet_jones

07-04-2005, 01:17 PM

jadnashua,

My floor is 2x6 joists (not eights) on 16" ctrs. You make a good point about making it 14" if I could get them in contact with the subfloor. I have 4 sections that are 8'-11" x 19'-4" (like my first post, times four.)

As it stands, I ~could~ half the 8-11 span with a 2"x12"x19'-4" long, suported on either end and in the middle, and that's what I'm going to do, I think. As for the 4th section, I've got some mechanicals to work around, so I might sister every joist with something, either beside, or under, or something, but I can't halve THAT section with a 2x12, because that solution would be too deep.

Thanks for all your replies!

-hamlet

hamlet_jones

07-05-2005, 02:35 AM

Ah, this project is keeping me awake (no, actually, the fireworks are keeping me awake :crazy: )

Everything is as stated in my original posting, However with regards my subfloor: I have 1/2 ply nailed LENGTHWISE with the floor joists, and on top of that I have 3/4 t&g exterior ply runing cross grain to the joists (the correct way for strength).

Is this going to be okay with my 16" centers, and 1/2 hardibacker on top, or do I need to reduce my centers somehow? I am about to shorten the span buy the 2x12 method, but might do someting different (like add joists to make 8" centers) if that would be better.

thanks in advance,
hamlet

hamlet_jones

07-05-2005, 01:23 PM

I wanted add that my flloors are not 100% level. They are pretty good, but I have a a high spot, and the floors near the walls are slightly higher (no more than a quarter inch. With saltillo, is this descrepency going to show much, and if it does, will the saltilllo rustic "look" help moderate the uneveness visually speaking?

-hamlet

cx

07-05-2005, 02:49 PM

Your subflooring would not be adequate with the current joist spacing, Hamlet.

If you intend to halve the span of your joists by adding support beams, and you add more 2x6 joists midway between the existing, you would get where you need to go, I think. The only part of the equation I'm not sure about is the spacing of the supports under the new beams. The under 10 foot span there sounds OK for doubled 2x12s, but Injineer Bob would need to verify that.

Sounds like that still requires you to remove the blocking you have under there for the original subflooring, but you're getting almost no benefit from that subflooring anyway with it being so thin and in the wrong orientation.

My opinion; worth price charged.

hamlet_jones

07-05-2005, 03:51 PM

I think I'm going to skip dividing the span in half with 2x12s, knock out the existing blocking and just go with 2x10s between what's already there, , and put new blocking between each 2x10 for stability and to help shore up the 2x6s so everything is tied together.

-hamlet

bbcamp

07-05-2005, 05:19 PM

hamlet_jones

08-02-2005, 11:35 PM

I'm putting in saltillo, and with some advice I got here (thanks!), it was decided that I needed to beef up my floors. This is where I'm at now:

I've got an 8'-11" span, with original 2x6 on 16" centers, with 2x8 added in between. This results in an 8" center, or 6.5 inches "edge-to-edge".
My subfloor is 3/4" exteriour grade flooring plywood.

My deflection now calculates to be greater than L900+.

Question: Can I put my saltillo directly on the plywood subfloor? As I understand, before hardibacker, this was the way it was done...?

Thanks in advance,
-Hamlet

cx

08-02-2005, 11:53 PM

Please keep all your questions about the project on this thread, Hamlet. Causes a lot of duplication and confusion when you start new threads. Just make a post to your thread and it pops back to the top of the queue, no matter how old it gets. :)

No, you may not tile directly to the plywood. In fact, no one is gonna give you a warranty on your installation without a second layer of plywood, even though your joist spacing is reduced. Saltillo is even softer and weaker than some natural stone tiles, and all natural stone installations require double-layer subflooring. Can you get by with what you have and a CBU or membrane? Maybe, but again, no warranty. Not even from Herr Schluter (Ditra), although you might give them a call and tell them about your joist spacing and see if they'll give you a wavier for the Saltillo. Please tell us what they say if you call.

And no, that's not how it was customarily done before the advent of CBUs. Before that people still used mud beds for setting tiles. Not a lot of that going on any more, but we have some pros hereabouts who still do it on a regular basis. :)

My opinion; worth price charged.

Now that I read again what you have for joists, you better tell Schluter about those 2x6s in there, too. Some of your between-joist deflection is going to be a bit higher on the spans where there are 2x6s rather than 2x8s. The over all, distributed load joist deflection is within spec, but you're still gonna have some point-load issues methinks.

More plywood is what I think they're fixin' to tell you. :shades:

Maybe you can appeal to Injineer Bob, though. :D

hamlet_jones

03-27-2012, 10:06 PM

I thought I would payback the forum and give some feedback on how this job went. It was my first tile effort apart from a small closet on a concrete floor.
I have a new job I need advice on, but first, let's get some closure with my past project:

I added 2x8 alternating with my 2x6 joists, and kept my 1/2 sub bottom ply running with the joists, and 3/4 sub top ply (T&G) that ran cross-grain to the joists. I used 2-1/4" ring shank nails every 3" into the new joists, and the old ones too. On the new joists, I wedged them in by notching, grooving, sectioning, & tapering the top edge near the ends, and tipped them into place, using a long crowbar to persuade them into position. I think they are tighter to the subfloor than the original joists.

Despite the advice to do so, I didn't add any more subflooring to what was already there (1/2 ply with grain running with the joists (oopsie) and 3/4 T&G set crossgrain to the joists.)

I spread thinset before hammering the 1/2 durock down with roofing nails (whatever I had, 1-3/4"?) I installed the durock cross-grain to the joists (haha!)

Then, I began carrying the home-depot saltillo upstairs, one box at a time, unpacking them, sponging them off, laying them out on poly, and sealing each twice. (Once wasn't enough, as I found out when I grouted the kitchen.)

I studied the floor for most of a morning, decided on diamond pattern, then jiggled it this way and that, figuring out how to split the difference front-to-back, and side-to-side. I had to make it all agree with the hallways, far kitchen wall, bedroom and livingroom. (I was finally able to do this without having to cut and install tiny corner bits.) Then I took out my pencil, tape, and chaulkline, and mapped EACH and EVERY tiie (except for the closets, I'm not crazy). I had to do this to assure that as I moved from the livingroom, towards the bath, into the bedroom, thru the passthru, and out the secondary hallway, that my diamond pattern would meet up and fit into the livingroom like a jigsaw puzzle (I laid the livingroom first). I didn't want any funky looking transitions between rooms, closets, kitchen, etc. I've seen that before, and it looks like the kind of tacky you get from a lazy man.

I bought all my tile at the same time, worried that their might be variation between lots. Not really a concern with saltillo, but I did discover h-d had 5 different lots of grout on the same pallet, and they were at least 2 shades apart. F/ck. I had already started a small section of grout, and I wasn't in the mood to carry all that downstairs & do a return, and besides, they didn't have any more, 'cause I bought all they had. SO, I stage out all the bags, count how many of each I had, and developed a mixing ratio. I'd scoop five coffee cans of this, 3 of that, 1 of the other, and 4 of something else, mix it dry, and then add my water. Gawd-dam, that was a lot of grout.

I can't remember what I sealed with, but I do recall mixing a couple different products. It's all the same stuff anyway, acrylic goop. In seven years, it's never yellowed, flaked, peeled, nor crazed. I re-coated it two years ago after a good scrub, this time I picked up a product from habitat. I think it was a lowes brand, and because it was discount, I got all they had left, which was matt, semi, and gloss. I mixed them all up in a bucket, and applied carefully with one of those sponge applicators that has the little hairs on it.
As it dried, it turned JET BLACK! :complain::complain::complain:

Hahaha, just kidding. It looks fine.

I couldn't have done it without the forum's help. Thank you one & all!
The John Bridge calculator is excellent, I used it often.

Attached are some pics...

hamlet_jones

03-27-2012, 10:18 PM

cx

03-27-2012, 10:21 PM